Wiki/Report of Meeting 2024-05-30

Report of Meeting 2024-05-30

Present: Ed Gottsman and Bob Therriault

Full transcripts of this meeting are now available below on this wiki page.

1) A quick review of the work that Jan Jacobs has done on creating a mapping of the categories using quantitative analysis. It is going well and is a process rather than a one-shot magic bullet. Step by step the results should leave us with a categorization that is grounded in the structure of the wiki. Ed has sent his list of J words he is using in J Viewer that should help Jan reduce the number of words he is analyzing.

2) Bob reviewed the work that he has done on the category presentation that will show up on the bottom of each content page on the wiki https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/HowNuVoc and between the content and the associated pages for category pages on the wiki https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Newcomers_N. The Introduction to NuVoc page is an exception because it is a content page that has been forwarded from a category page https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/HowNuVoc. The category map at the bottom of that page will need to be removed to avoid duplication when the category maps are added to the footers of the content pages. Bob will need to update previous category pages to provide useful information where the current space holders are located. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Archived_Pages_R.11 Ed wondered if the pages are laid out by hand. Bob replied that on the category pages the top content is done by hand, the category map and the attached pages are automatic. Highlighted categories are done by exchanging arguments in the template call. If the category tree were changed then that would involve some changes to the template page. https://code.jsoftware.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Wiki/Category_Tree_Template&action=edit This could change the display as the number of entries can change the placement in the map.

3) Ed has been working on the J Viewer and the current issue is that J9.6 stops during the download which is hard to debug. There are a few more things that he will try before contacting Henry, who had advised until beta 9 was released. Ed is using threads to do this, but that should not affect the process of downloading. There are not any problems with J9.5 using the J Viewer at this point.

For access to previous meeting reports https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Wiki_Development If you would like to participate in the development of the J wiki please contact us on the J forum and we will get you an invitation to the next J wiki meeting held on Thursdays at 23:00 (UTC).

Transcript

Um, I guess I can't remember what I did the order of the

agenda, but one of the things will be the, the chat we had

with Jan about the categories and his SVG presentation and

just really to, I guess, for the record state that we did it.

And to me, anyway, it seems more like a process. It's not going

to be a magic bullet. But in the process of working back and

forth, we may end up coming into a nice space that way. And

that seems to be the way it's evolving. So as long as he's

willing to put that effort into it, I'm willing to go along with

that. And I think it's going along as expected. Any thoughts

about that? No, I think that's fair.

For my template stuff.

Let's see. Yeah, share.

It shouldn't be a big surprise or anything, because it's pretty

much what I was kind of hoping for. But

there we go.

Well, that's the homepage. So the thing about this is remember,

I was saying that I didn't have a way of putting the template

map at the bottom of a page. Yeah, I don't when it's

generated. So in other words, if there were pages attached to

this page, they would show up underneath this. Right. But this

information is all it's not generated. I've created it.

So again, because I've created this as a template, it will sit

below. So what ends up happening? So I'm on the

homepage. Now, if I click the notices, I'll go to the notice

page. And of course, now notices is highlighted on the notice

page. And I've done newcomers. And so newcomers is another one

that there's more information in there. But underneath it all,

again, you've got your map. And in this case, there are pages

attached. So they're down below. Yeah, yeah. So we'll have to

decide if we're okay with that. Yeah. And so that's, that's

going to end up for these category pages, that's going to

be the general look of them. The one thing I found interesting,

I was going through these, and I think I got all the way down to

the introduction to new VAC. And great, that's introduction

to new VAC. And that's wonderful. And everything. And

this is at the bottom of it. So that's good. Except that this

isn't a category page. What I've done is I've sent it to a

category page, which then is forwarded to this page, it's

already been done. I see. Now, what it means for this

particular page is, if we have Raul insert these templates into

the footer of the page, then this would be a page where this

would show up. And then below it, there would be another one

exactly the same. I see the one below it, I don't think would

have any way of highlighting. Sure. Because when you insert on

the footer, it's just taking that information and putting it

in, it's not returning it from the page it was clicked on.

Okay. So that's going to be one difference. And what I will

probably do is when we get this, these inserted to all the

footers, I will probably take this one out. And most people

won't even know the difference. But introduction to new new VAC

would no longer be highlighted, because I see you will go to

that page, you won't, but you'll end up forwarding to a page

that has this introduction to new book. Well, yeah, in fact,

it's not introduction to new book, the category, it's the

actual introduction to new book. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

All right. I think that's great, Bob. I think that's terrific.

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm pretty happy with it. The as I go to other

pages, the other ones that I've done down here, I did the wiki

pages. And they're kind of the same, except that as you can

see, the, I've got more information, it starts to look

more like a standard page with this at the bottom. The only

way you know, it's a category pages, there's pages attached to

it. Right, and you've got the highlight there. Right, right.

But I've also gone through the process of taking out those side.

They're not there anymore, because they don't need to be

there anymore. It's contained at the bottom. That's excellent.

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm pretty happy with it. The work I'm going to

end up having to do, I will just take a random page like this.

This will obviously be as it's updated, what will end up

happening here is I'm probably going to put a little bit more

information about this particular page, just to give a

general sense. And then right below that, between these pages

would be the map. Right, that's what you'll see on this, this

kind of a category page. So most of the category page pages, if

they're not sort of major subcategories, will have less

information at the top, it'll be a bit more obvious that they're

category pages. Right. Cool. Yeah. But that's, that's where I

am in that work. And so I'm happy with that. Yeah.

Yeah, you should be. Well, and thank you for your work helping

out with, with the look of that map, because I really am as I

use it more, I'm more and more happy with it.

Oh, I'm so glad. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's ideas are easy,

but actually getting it to work is a whole other, what is it 1%

inspiration, 99% perspiration? Yeah, I think that's the

percentage. That's been my experience. The difference

between ideation and implementation. Yeah, exactly.

Have you, are you at the stage still where these are hand

laid out? And are you happy with that? If the answer is yes,

that's perfectly okay with me. I'm really just curious.

Okay, so when you're referring to the category pages

themselves here, they are hand laid out. Of course, yeah.

Information down here is essentially, I've already put

the list of categories in and they're contained in a grid.

So that's, that's the nature of them. When I actually the how I

get them highlighted is on this page, when it calls the template

to be put into place. It's actually really kind of a cool

little simple thing. When I call the template, all I have to do

is give it an ID name. And that ID corresponds to the idea that

ID that's been given to each of the spots in the template.

And it says, if it gets this ID, highlight it with the red

circle. And that's how it does it. So that's, I mean, I do have

to go in and adjust the category page to do that. But once I've

done that, I don't, I don't have anything else to do.

Okay. And if a category were added somewhere in the middle of

the template, how would you handle that?

I'll go through to the template itself. It would just end up

getting, it would just be an entry in one of these here.

I see. Good.

So that, and here you can see where the, in the span of it,

because, because I found out that you can't, you can't, you

through, you have to do inline CSS to make the colors overcome

the highlight colors. Because they've got a link, they'll

default to that blue or whatever it is, unless you do it, a

span within, and that's where the ID is located too, which

makes it easy to add the circle around that information.

Right. Right. Oh, good.

Now where it would show up is right now, the, the categories

are kind of nicely grouped around, say I added a category

into newcomers, it would kick one of these guys probably to

the top of this column.

Yes, of course. So by accident, you've got a nice layout right

now, but it's not guaranteed to persist.

Well, by accident and honestly, I kind of created it that way

because I could, I could move things around so that I, well,

for two reasons, I wanted the reference below playground and

community and wiki at the back. And when I did that, it was

easier for me to line things up.

I see.

One other thing I may add is I actually may put a link into

this right into the J viewer page.

Because I think it would be easy to put either above notices

or below notices. And I think that would give it some more

prominence than it has currently.

All right. Well, that's great.

Yeah.

So that's my report on that so far. And we'll see where Jan

goes with, and thank you for sending that information along

to him for the J words.

Yeah.

Because I'm sure that'll help him.

Yeah.

And we'll see where he gets to from that.

Yeah. I'm curious too.

Yeah.

I think the next thing on the agenda was probably just the J

viewer and where you are with that.

So I downloaded a beta eight because Henry sent me a note

saying, try it with beta eight. And if it doesn't work, let me

know. And it doesn't work.

It doesn't work in a bad place.

It doesn't work when it is in a task downloading the database

file. It just goes off by itself.

And if you flip over to J5, 9.5, and you download the database

file, it comes right down.

Yeah.

And you go back to 9.6 and you're still waiting.

So that's great information for Henry.

Yeah. I'm going to see if I can't instrument the...

I'm going to dig a little more before I bug Henry.

Yeah.

But I do think even if you can finagle a fix on it, it's really

good information for him because having something split out that

way as a separate task and get lost, it'll come back to bite

him sometime.

Oh, absolutely. No question about it.

No, I'm not suggesting that I might fix it and keep quiet.

Yeah.

But if I can give him any more information before I ask him to

dig, I'd appreciate it.

He actually said something interesting.

Offhand, I don't have it in front of me.

The problem I was having before was J was freezing.

And actually, I'm still getting some freezes sometimes.

And he said that he can tell where a freeze happens.

So from this, I infer that he can go into the engine, go into

the interpreter and say, "What are you doing?"

Which is not an avenue that us mere mortals have.

I have often wished.

Other thing I'm kind of wondering, are you using threads

with this?

Yeah.

Tasks. Yeah.

Yeah.

So that you're actually using the capital T dot in this.

T dot.

So yeah, that should be something I think he'd be really

interested in.

Because if you send a task off and it doesn't come back.

That's right.

The question is, is it not coming back because there's

something funky with the task management?

Or is it not coming back because the file is taking forever

to come down for whatever reason?

It's not clear.

So as I say, I want to do a little more.

Like what I might try is forking off the task and not

downloading the file and just seeing whether it ever comes

back again.

Right.

That kind of thing.

Yeah.

I just sort of fork it off as a dummy.

See if it shows up.

Then that's not the issue.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Huh.

Well, that's interesting.

And interesting that it's a change from 9.5.

Because I haven't heard a lot about any updates in 9.6

regarding the tasks.

I haven't.

I haven't looked.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I was just going by the stuff that he'd been putting in the

notes about the things that have been improved.

And I don't remember seeing anything specifically.

But there was a good thread in the forums at one point about

the tasks and somebody was trying to do stuff.

But that seemed to be somebody who hadn't been doing tasks

before, who was just trying it out.

I think I remember that.

Yeah.

There were people with experience that were kind of

filling the person on the gaps.

But.

And was he working in 9.6 beta?

Or was he working in 9.5?

No, I think he was working in 9.6.

Okay.

Which I thought was daring because.

If you're going to try and learn something, I'd go with the

more stable thing.

All right, well, I will see you next week and maybe we'll hear from Jan in the meantime.

Yeah, and I may rattle the bars on Raoul's cage and just see whether-

>> I miss Raoul.

>> Yeah, yeah.

Just see if he wants to come back to-

>> Yeah, cool.

Okay.

>> Okay, bye-bye.

>> Thanks.

Take care.

Goodbye.

>> You too.

Bye-bye.