Wiki/Report of Meeting 2024-02-08
Report of Meeting 2024-02-08
Present: Skip Cave, Raul Miller, and Bob Therriault
Full transcripts of this meeting are now available below on this wiki page.
1) Ed sends regrets and so there will not be a report on the J Viewer.
2) Raul has been working on his Watch J project and is currently investigating loops. For the wiki, Raul has been working on the Foreign Conjunction section of NuVoc and has set up a test page for 6!:0 https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/Foreigns/6/0 that provides more examples. There was a discussion of where to link it to the current NuVoc page. We were leaning toward linking within the specific cells on the expanded NuVoc page. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/Foreigns#m6 This may end up being a community collaboration as there is a lot of information and examples to be provided for this important part of the J experience. Raul will continue to pick off the low hanging fruit and get of sense of the scope of the effort required.
3) Bob presented his revised approach to the Home landing page https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Home The look is cleaner and Raul mentioned that in the magazine industry there would be a preference to link sections vertically to draw the eye to significant areas. Bob was using the centred symmetry to draw the eye top to bottom. Bob was concerned that the links at the upper right do not line up with the Category Tree. His solution was to move those links down to the main section. The Help icon refers to category wiki information and not the J wiki. It may be omitted except on the specific wiki development pages. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Contributing_to_the_J_Wiki_W.2 There was more work to decide the ordering of the links in the centre section. The newcomers page would retain the previous cartoon look.
4) The Welcome to J page would retain the previous cartoon look https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Contributing_to_the_J_Wiki_W.2, as it feels more friendly, but the layout may need to change as the Getting Started should be the focus and it feels too low on the page. Moving the Table of Contents above the squares might solve this. Raul wondered if the Table of contents could be put into the grid. Raul also wondered if "Why Would I Use J" might be preferred over "Why Should I Use J".
5) Other sectional pages such as Community would have a more retrained format. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Category:Community_C Raul wondered about how easy it would be to know where you are through the content that is supplied. More examples and illustrations at as high a level as possible may her the way to deliver navigation hints through the content of the page. The Category tree provides information through structure, but the content of the category is not evident beyond the title of the category itself. Bob had added links to the J Viewer on the Home page as it is the best way to access the wiki efficiently.
6) Raul suggested using some CSS grids https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/complete-guide-grid/ instead of tables as they may be more flexible with page layout. This might solve the issue with Table of Contents only recognizing the hierarchy of headings. Bob would look into this with the idea that it might be a better presentation tool and may also be easier for updating information. Bob wondered whether this might simplify NuVoc, but that it is such a large table that it might be better to start with smaller aspects. Raul wondered how the CSS grid might work with the wiki templates.
For access to previous meeting reports https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Wiki_Development If you would like to participate in the development of the J wiki please contact us on the J forum and we will get you an invitation to the next J wiki meeting held on Thursdays at 23:59 (UTC) Next meeting is February 15, 2024.
Trancript
And I guess to start off with, I'll just reiterate Ed San's regrets, not able to attend. He's got family visiting, which is a wonderful thing. And so there isn't much of a report on the JViewer. 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,000
It seems to be getting updates and I haven't heard anything further about recent forum posts showing up on it, but I'm sure he's on that and probably part of his priorities. 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:26,000
Priorities. Anything that you've got, Raul, that you want to chat about? 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:33,000
Um, I, there's two areas of possible interest that I've been engaged in this week that might be worth mentioning. I'm done a little bit more on the WrapJ project, the WatchJ project, I guess is what you call it. 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:50,000
I'm installed currently on an infinite loop in my evaluation mechanism on forks and I haven't tracked that down. 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:59,000
I've moved that forward at least a little bit. The other thing is I started doing a little bit of redundant work in the wiki. 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:10,000
I've been displeased with the way that the forums are documented and I finally decided I was going to do something about it and I did a very tiny amount that needs by about 100 times more work to be complete, which is, I decided I wanted individual pages for forum instances. 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:32,000
Without that you can't have examples. You can't have further discussion and you can't have, you can't link to it. It's just, so I built one of those and kind of, I could probably build a few more just to even be able to set examples for how they might go. 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:51,000
In some cases there's pairs of them that are probably should document together like when there's an often need on even pair one to set one to get, we should probably document together. In other cases there's groups of them like that, that, that seems like grouping them together would be too much. 00:01:51,000 --> 00:02:07,000
So I, a lot of judgment calls ahead, a lot of typing ahead, but I did a tiny step. 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:16,000
Congratulations. I think that's excellent. And I absolutely agree with you about the forums because there's so much in there. I mean, I, I find not so much these days. 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:29,000
Six months ago I was spending an awful lot of time in the old vocabulary. 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,000
When I was looking at the forums because there are some examples there. 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:39,000
I'm not doing so much of that, but it definitely is, it's a very rich area of information, and it's lightly documented and I find in ways that 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:56,000
I'm actually I don't know what your feeling is about it for the. 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000
Hello, skip. 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,000
I don't know what your feeling is about how to link to the current tables, are you doing like a link out of each section to the tables is that if you look at if you look if you go to the wiki you'll see what I did it, I was making an effort to not just copy from the old version, and not just copy from new version, but actually to, to kind of take information from both and build something new, but it has some characteristics which are similar to the old version, and some characters which are a little bit more new Bach in structure. 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:33,000
I decided it makes sense to have a landing page for each for each m value of foreign sort of recent changes that you won't see anything there because it's not like it's not like it's just it's sort of recent changes. 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:55,000
This one for this. 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,000
Yep. 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,000
That's my example page. 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:07,000
And it, I mean, it may be could could be enhanced further but that's that's the. 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:14,000
And then you'll see above there in the in the breadcrumbs there's a six page. 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:26,000
That's kind of how I'm envisioning it as a landing page for a group of forums and and this could also be fleshed out I'm a fairly minimalist sort of certain, a lot of these things. 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:39,000
Compare this to just the vocabulary foreigns page which is next level up, where I might eventually link this. 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:47,000
It's in the breadcrumbs. 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,000
Ones back page. 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,000
Back page. 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:03,000
As foreigns not vocabulary. 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,000
Oh I see. 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,000
Gotcha. Okay. 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,000
Right on that. 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,000
I may eventually link into here if I can figure out how to do it without being too disruptive. 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:18,000
But this is the the current presentation and it does have a have a lot of the information, maybe most of it, but it's still digest sometimes. 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:29,000
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. When you click, like for instance on this page when you go go to click on here, expands it right. 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:37,000
It takes it down to that to that table. 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:42,000
And the page that I did it was just that get current time row in this table. Yeah. 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:58,000
I'm wondering whether the way to do it would be to make this current and you but we take you to that. 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:07,000
That's probably that's probably probably the best way good good approach. 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000
I don't mean to get more information. 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,000
I wouldn't get. 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,000
I think I wanted a bit more content before I start linking it in. 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,000
I want to get a little time to reflect on things make sure I haven't done a horrible goof in my presentation. 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,000
Stuff like that. Yeah. 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,000
No, but there's definitely lots of work to do there and say examples as well. 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,000
And 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,000
just thinking, I would put the link here and then I guess as well. 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:53,000
Put the link here. Like we go to the same page. 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:01,000
Right. 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,000
Yep, because maybe the action link to be a link to yeah or maybe one, one word of the action link. 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:13,000
Maybe the end value. Yeah, different possibilities. Yeah, yeah, you could. I don't think the end value is as prominent. 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:23,000
It's not, but it when somebody is coming in from the other direction. Yeah, saying, I've got this foreign here. 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:32,000
It's got these numbers on it. 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,000
At some point, you got to cater that audience to. 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000
Well, that's true. I mean you could put the same link on both of these right. Yeah. 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000
I could put it. I mean, there's different ways I, I kind of like the action because that's kind of the description that tells you what you're going to go see not zero that's that's the concise, the concise reference I guess the most concise reference that makes sense. 00:07:43,000 --> 00:08:00,000
Yeah. 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:07,000
And then, but also like for some of these like 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,000
PM data coming up with good examples of that. I'm not even sure I have to do I've never used that that facility so I'd have to get myself up to speed before I can even write documentation on it. 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:23,000
Yeah, or we asked around see if there's anybody who is using it a lot wants to. Oh yeah, like you people interested in writing science pages that'd be great. 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:31,000
Yeah, I think it'd be great. 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,000
It's also depends on their perspectives and their biases and their 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:38,000
if I had to guess I think Devon's done a bit of work with the program performance. 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,000
And the in Clark probably has some good ideas on formatting and presentation stuff like that but I've probably been neglecting. 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:51,000
He's done a lot of this kind of stuff before. Yeah, I know, Ian sort of taking a step back from stuff so I don't sure how much. 00:08:51,000 --> 00:09:00,000
Oh yeah I mean, I can see if you know if we can throw him like a few examples and ask for comments he might have some good insights. Yeah, no, we're not we're not asking him to do the work we're asking him to critique. 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:15,000
Yeah, no, he'd be he'd be a great one to critique a lot of these areas for sure. 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:22,000
I'm just thinking about it. 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,000
The six n page. 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Like, the link would be here I think right, but that link already taken. Yeah, you want exactly you want that to go down to the expansion of the pages. 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:41,000
Unless put it on the number, or we can put it down on the expansion. You know if you if you click, click there. Yeah. 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:49,000
And see how it up if you scroll up just a bit or maybe do at m equals six maybe have that be the link. Yeah. 00:09:49,000 --> 00:10:00,000
It's not that important, it's mostly there to come back to from the from from the inner pages. That's why I wanted I didn't want the inner pages to just drop ballet back down to vocabulary forums because that missed out on the opportunity to document, what was common about these. 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:20,000
You know all of the sixes, for example, yeah. 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:30,000
And some of these reflect reflect on this, but I, my, my first gut says, this is what should link to the six end page. 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:39,000
Yep. 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,000
It's the. Yeah. 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,000
And I should call it here also 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,000
64 time is a pun there. It's number of times the call is made rather than time of day or any, you know, that kind of time. 00:10:48,000 --> 00:11:01,000
So, and was a little, little cute there. 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:09,000
So it's not returning. It's not returning a series of times in the day that the parser was called. It's actually coming back with an integer number of how many times, right, you're saying, yeah, this is an integer and overflow is an error that doesn't have anything to do with seconds. 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:29,000
Times instead of time. 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:34,000
Yeah. 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:39,000
One of the parser calls. 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,000
Something like that. If you want to get away from times I don't know if it makes sense to me to with the explanation. It's an integer that makes sense. 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:51,000
Yeah, it's, it's. 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,000
I'll probably want to play around with that one myself a little bit. I can't think of any use for it but it might have a useful, and it doesn't need documentation since it's there. 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:05,000
Yeah. 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,000
And in this description it does say count parser calls. So, yeah, maybe it's, you know, it can be a an ID generator for example that might be a use for it. 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:20,000
But every time you call it you're guaranteed to get a different number. So within the session it's a unique value. Yeah. 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:26,000
And it's sequential. 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,000
And, yeah, you'll have an especially on a 64 bit machine old never overflow. 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:36,000
As you run out of your, your power company will shut down before the machine. 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:42,000
Not quite the sun going dark but 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:50,000
well I think that's really, I think that's really good I think this is an area that 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:57,000
it's really important I'm finding it more and more important. 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,000
As I get deeper into some of the stuff in the language and, and a lot of times it's a bit of an exploration when you first start with something. 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:09,000
So I'm thinking, first steps is probably low hanging fruit gets get some just throw out some easy examples and get get you know flesh out some things that seem interesting. 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:18,000
And then after that it's it's going to get into the long haul, you know, finding milestones that are reachable and schedules that are doable and make progress. 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:32,000
There's certainly a lot here is basically every row. 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:38,000
Is a page with up to a dozen or even higher sometimes links. 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:46,000
Yeah, there's there's. 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,000
I know how to count these I go to 00:13:50,000 --> 00:14:08,000
and the, the, the values for why only go up to nine on the table but they certainly go higher than that. 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:22,000
Like you've got these ones that sort of scrambles up a bit. 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,000
And there's always a few here that aren't documented. 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,000
One in the coupling global so that they 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:35,000
just been. I don't think that people have wanted to make them. 00:14:35,000 --> 00:15:01,000
Yeah, well, 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000
I can help I think it's a good project. 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,000
If you want to sort of get some example pages, you'll go for it. I mean, you're in your all your extra free time. 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:15,000
Yeah. 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,000
Yeah, but it's certainly something that needs to get done, or she, you know, is worth working on, whether it needs to get done it's kind of that kind of pressure, but anything added to it will be beneficial. 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:32,000
And I would say that the format you're already using is good. Like I would stick with that format explain it's good. 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:43,000
You know, people are 239 it looks like my 39 forms. 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,000
Like, 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000
and 00:15:52,000 --> 00:16:00,000
looks like about what 14 extra pages. 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,000
15 extra pages for the road. 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,000
When the groups. Yeah, if I go. Yeah. 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:18,000
The nice thing about this is it static, it's not really growing at any steady. 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:25,000
I count 1515 pages of. Oh, it's because it was all you have a good 15. 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:37,000
I over counted on the on the previous one I missed. I missed a couple of the comment out. 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:47,000
Yeah. 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,000
Well, good project. 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:53,000
Anything that was before is the number of implemented forms, like 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:07,000
like skips dropped off. 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:19,000
I was just about to ask him if there was anything he wanted to bring up. 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:25,000
My friends are 237 actually 237. 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,000
There's, there are some forms that are coming out and there are a couple forms that have comments. 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,000
And I was looking at the source code basically to get the count. 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:41,000
I took a run at 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:46,000
adjusting the homepage closer to what I think. 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000
Chris and Eric are interested in less visual. Oh nice. 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:57,000
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I used to work for us today, and I and they had a thing about invisible lines that guide the eye. And I, and, you know, and so I keep thinking that we should have those. 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:13,000
Even though it's not you know it's not it's not a wiki thing it's it's a just a habit from an old job but still see the centered stuff and there's no invisible lines guiding the, the I see that these things are connected and I think that should be. 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:30,000
Okay, so tell me about that in terms of design. So, are you saying lines that should connect the video welcome to why should I use J. You got 1234 blocks here. 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:43,000
And there's no one vertical line that connects all four blocks anywhere on the page. 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:53,000
So for example, in the USA presentation you might have the bottom three all lined on the left, and you might have the top one aligned with the middle line of the third one or something like that. 00:18:53,000 --> 00:19:09,000
Oh, I guess. So, so you're talking about if you pick an edge, all these edges are different. 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:15,000
Right, right. There's a vertical line that goes here. Well that's pretty close but yes vertical line and this vertical line are all separate. Right. And you're trying to get more of a lineup. 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:26,000
Yeah, and they don't have to all be the same. No, but there should be more of them is, is, I guess, the way that I was trained. 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:35,000
Okay. 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:44,000
Think about that. It's just 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:50,000
wrong with having having them all on the on the left either, but that introduces another thing which is what's you know what's the space right so anyways, if you go to us today calm you'll see, you'll see some of that stuff in there in their presentations, I think 00:19:50,000 --> 00:20:03,000
they're still doing it. 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,000
They've been a lot of changes in management to so maybe they're not anymore. 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000
One point that was the way they did it. 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,000
So, what I'm looking to do is to take to line this vertical lineup on one of these other things. So, right, yeah that that's that's kind of the thought that I was having is, is make them make them seem like they're deliberately part of the same thing, you know, some, 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:31,000
some larger, larger organization. 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,000
Now, that's not, you know, obviously that introduces new problems but 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,000
I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just 00:20:42,000 --> 00:21:12,000
what I was leaning on is the, the symmetry that everything center. 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,000
And so to me that draws me top to bottom. 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000
And that was the direction I was looking at a video off the top. If somebody has no idea what they're looking at. 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:33,000
Down here sort of a motivation thing. 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,000
So I put a series of things to start with the playground which is an easy access thing reference JV where I put below that because I believe they're sort of linked, and then community after that. 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:50,000
And then this was sort of almost a technical technical footnote is the way I was looking at. 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:58,000
Yep. 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,000
And that's visible. 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,000
Yeah. 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000
I'll think about those vertical lines too because I know what you're saying with that, and it having too many of them like for instance, one to me that's noisy is this up here, because this doesn't link to the side of this. 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:29,000
Okay. 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,000
Yeah, see that's hard to do because this depending on what's in it. It's independent modules. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:39,000
Now what I was actually, what I was actually thinking of doing was actually taking these and putting them down in here. 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:49,000
So I would just get rid of that completely. 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000
Just on that one page or on all pages. 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000
Um, well, I was only going to have this on one page. Oh, I see. 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,000
The thing I was going to have on all the pages was talking about putting the search up here. All right, right, right. 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,000
And that was going to sit up here, but it was above this horizontal line so I'm taking that as a break for it. 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:11,000
The other thing I was looking at, looked at it into any depth, but there probably should be a way to take out this help because what this help does is it just takes you to help about category pages. 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:24,000
It's not really a useful help. 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,000
Right. 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000
So, just thinking it. 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,000
It's orientation, it's wiki orientation as opposed to J orientation. 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,000
And 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,000
that probably does have some value people but it's a different audience. 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,000
And a lot of people are already familiar with those that aren't are probably computer novices that don't really know what they're looking for. 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:54,000
And would need more guidance. 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000
And what I was thinking is where that help link could actually fit would be in under this wiki hints thing. 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:06,000
Yeah, I was thinking about this wiki because I was thinking what I would put in about this wiki is some of the stuff that's already in about wiki hints, which is basically, it's broken just down into here but using the wiki contributing the wiki development 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:21,000
I would be computed on that page to have an opening paragraph saying what is a wiki because people who need wiki hints. Yeah, you maybe it's only for a few hours. 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:30,000
Yeah, but every, you know, everybody's gonna have to go through that at some point in their life, they're going to use a wiki. 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,000
Yeah, yeah. 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:43,000
Yeah. 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Anyway, that that was what I was thinking of putting down to taking that of that out of that corner and popping it down in here and what I was actually thinking is what I might have done is split this table up. 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:58,000
So maybe these two in one section. 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,000
And then reference and JV or in another, and then the question I had is, where would I put announcements. 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:09,000
And I might put announcements down with community. 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,000
And then wiki hints down below everything else. 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:18,000
But something like that that that would this area in here would become an area to branch out from. 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:27,000
And playground. I probably actually won't Shane well yeah I'll leave playground the way it is, or by getting started. 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:38,000
I was going to have it stay in this kind of a format. 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:47,000
And, and that was really just because I think it's a bit more easy for people who are similar assimilating it doesn't doesn't feel as formal. 00:25:47,000 --> 00:26:00,000
As long as you're clear on this page. 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:07,000
What I'm seeing on this page is that the colors don't form, they almost form diagonal lines but don't not quite. 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:16,000
I want to make that be 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,000
more algorithmic for some reason I don't know why I want. 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,000
No, it's a good point. I looked I looked at it and thought whether there was, I mean when I originally was putting things together, whether there was a way to color code, so that certain things, different colors would indicate where you might be. 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:38,000
Yeah. 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,000
You know like more technical stuff might be green if it's installing and, you know, you could make books primer and essays and articles purple. 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:52,000
Anyway, it's also tempted to do a complete every, every, every one of them's got a different color you know I maybe do a hue versus saturation or something. 00:26:52,000 --> 00:27:06,000
I don't know. 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,000
That might be too cutesy too. 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Yeah, yeah. 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,000
The one area I'm really looking at on this page so is, I think, I guess there's two ways for me to do it, I could put the table of contents up above this which I may do. 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:28,000
Because getting started I think is really what a person would want to read first. 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Yeah, it's a good starting point. Yeah. And now this starts to get in its way, even though these are a lot of links for getting started and then I was looking, well should these links go down below this. 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:44,000
Yeah, possibly they could but then there's just a lot going on in this page. 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:50,000
And if you want to be cutesy I wonder if you could put the table of contents in one of those rectangles. 00:27:50,000 --> 00:28:04,000
That's an interesting question. 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,000
I don't that might be too cutesy to is sometimes I get into. Yes, it's possible but why would you want to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:16,000
I know you can place the table of contents wherever you like by where you put the underscore, you can put it in a div or something. Yeah, yeah. 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:27,000
And, yeah. 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,000
But as I said, there's a lot going on on this page and I don't, I don't think it's well organized yet. 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,000
But it, I am. 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,000
I'm trying not to make it quite as formal as if I go back to here. 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:47,000
The rest of these will go to something that looks more like that. 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:55,000
So I'm going to put the table of contents and then down below the links that we talked about. 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,000
And that's essentially what references will look like to the one thing that I'm worried about here looking at this is 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:12,000
when I'm going somewhere I often want to get into the meat of things quickly. And here I can be traversing an entire tree, without knowing when I'm getting into the meat of things and how much more effort, I'm going to need to look for things before I can actually be finding something. 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:31,000
Because you know they're all single lines of short descriptions. 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,000
And there's no. 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,000
You know until until I get into the actual pages no examples that I know what those how relevant those short description is going to be to what it is that I'm looking for. 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:47,000
Well, there's kind of the this tree on the side right 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,000
Yeah, but that's still that's still now that's not content. 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:56,000
Right, yeah, yeah. 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,000
And, and it's, this is, this is, this is a casual user issue it's not a, I'm not talking about the advanced user at this point, the casualties who is kind of the target of this. 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:15,000
They're reading you it's all it's all abstract until you get into something with examples, possibly even illustrations and and of course it's always frustrating to be in that stage because you're trying to search and understand and think about and reason about all at the same time and and it's all, you know, it's all a muddle. 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:40,000
And I, and I don't know that there is a great way to deal all those issues. 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:46,000
That said, the organ organization that I'm used to for that thing kind of thing is there's like a top section that's got like maybe six or seven choices. 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:56,000
And then it builds out from there, going into some detail on on what relates those six, six choices or information, you know, it doesn't have to be choices. 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:08,000
But, you know, it kind of kind of trying to 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:15,000
not just partition the information space but also to give some 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:27,000
give something that 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,000
different pace I guess maybe a little more concrete at the same in this and and the the category pages show you that although kind of upside down because you have 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:45,000
some content at the top and then you have categories down below and also it's not. 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:51,000
It's not organized based on information load, you know, one category might page might have two categories and then I have 500 00:31:51,000 --> 00:32:01,000
It's, it's not a general introduction type of approach. It's a 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,000
You know what you're looking for. And you've already you're happy with what you found and you want to see more like this and you're hoping that you'll find some here. 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:15,000
That's what as my, my understanding of the basic motivational category pages. 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:21,000
Yeah. 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,000
Well, that's, yeah, that's one of their uses of it. And then the other is a structural one. 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:28,000
Yeah, well yeah you and you you've taken it and you turn it into a navigation tree, which is 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:36,000
definitely a useful thing. I'm just thinking from a 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,000
Looking back at my past selves reading documentation I've I've 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,000
You know what I want is to get very quickly to the thing that answers my question. And that often involves search and when I get into a 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:55,000
Body of documentation. 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000
Some, some of those are better oriented at pointing me in the right direction to find what I need and others are less useful for that kind of an approach. 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:12,000
So what I see here the table of contents to me is is is a orientation to that page. 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:20,000
So that was like 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,000
Yes, that's expanding the I mean, I could, I mean, I could expand the description by putting something say beside forums, it's going to show up beside here right 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:36,000
I can expand that title. 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,000
Yeah, here's the thing that I'm concerned here and it's not necessarily a problem concern. It's just that it's it's my past biases speaking, but 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:54,000
You got forums and then below you have forums and you got forums, there's access to the J forums and Google groups and I've repeated I've seen for us four times there but 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:06,000
That's all I know is that it's for 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,000
I there's no there's no samples is no 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,000
If I didn't know what a forum was already. 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,000
I, it wouldn't tell me much and if I didn't know as a former I want to get past that as fast as I could to into the actual forums. So what I would take from that is it's the challenge is actually in these descriptions. 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:33,000
Maybe that's maybe that's what I should be thinking about. Yeah. 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:46,000
And I don't know. I don't have good answers here, by the way. 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,000
It's a good, good perspective, though. 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:55,000
I'm just looking at it and thinking whether or not the 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000
The explanation of what the forum is would come right in this gap here would just be text. 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:09,000
You're still 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000
Is there's a lot of forums can be 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,000
If forums can be like BB code stuff forums where people are kind of chatting in real time. There are forums that were originally email forums and they still have some of that character. Oh, now that we're moving into Google groups, maybe they'll lose some of that character. 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:29,000
Yeah, so there's also a little bit of a question in my mind about what is, you know, 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:36,000
Are there multiple kinds of forums and play here. And is that worth mentioning. 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:45,000
And I guess kind of you do have that because you got the forms of form archives, but it's not described. I mean, it, you know, you kind of paid up by as most as anyways. Once you get into it, but at the level of this page. 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:59,000
I don't know quite 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000
I guess I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on this page is maybe 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,000
Awesome. 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,000
But so you know you skim over it and get where you're going. I don't. This is more like SEO stuff where you're building links to kind of point the machines in the right direction as much as when the people in the right direction. 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:22,000
Yeah. And one of the things I added to the links here that I hadn't had before is the J viewer. 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:28,000
So, you know, I think that's a really good idea. 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,000
Interact. 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,000
It's, it's the age old problem with computers is how do you get people to get their toes wet when they're focusing on a completely different issue. 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:04,000
And they maybe don't want to be dragged into. Well, I just said it was a definitive search tool for Jay. 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:11,000
Yeah. 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,000
I debated putting out the fact that it requires jqt. 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,000
I thought that's not I mean if you click on it. 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,000
That's in the installation notes for the viewer and after you let them know it's an interactive and 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:32,000
real time, I don't feel times right word. 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,000
You're active isn't quite you active enough either. 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,000
It's quick. No. 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:45,000
So you got to see. 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,000
At some point you got to just, you're gonna have to rely on word of mouth and stuff like that to overcome. 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:54,000
You know I was looking here at the time that I was interested in that topic. 00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:00,000
No, I was just thinking if I put it, I was moving it to the front page so along with the other like, but it pretty much front and center 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:13,000
and I would encourage people to use it whether or not they look over it I mean I'm, I'm thinking of the, the J code search that Chris put in that people just had no idea was even there. 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:29,000
Yep. And it was there for years. 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000
And that's that's always a problem with large bodies of information is there's so much information there is libraries have the same issue. 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:40,000
They've got all these books on things. 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,000
And 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,000
people don't people don't aren't really even librarians have trouble science realizing what all is there. 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:53,000
Yeah. 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,000
If you don't know, going back ages but if you don't know about card catalogs in the 1960s, you're wondering a library. 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:05,000
Yeah, you have to, you know, if you don't know about card catalogs and don't know to ask what kind of quite that the librarian is able to ask questions of the kind of what you do is you go in you see some books and you start reading for a bit and then you put it back because you 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:19,000
know you're supposed to take away. 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,000
Or you cuddle corner cuddle up in a corner and sit and read all day because this is your chance to read a book. Yeah. But, you know, I think the way I look at it I it comes down to the audience, like you're trying to define your audience. 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:39,000
And as with all of these aspects of the wiki which is a lot of information, different audiences are targeted in different parts of this wiki. 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:52,000
And, 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,000
well, as a certain amount of it has to be advocacy and promotion of different tools and education about how to use it, how to best use it. 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:07,000
And I'm also looking at this thinking, maybe instead of should would it be better to say would. 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:13,000
Why would I use JS this question. 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,000
I don't know. 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,000
I mean, there's a lot of possibilities. Yeah, I mean, you know, those are. 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:27,000
I guess I'm still thinking about information structure I'm designing the atrium to my library. Right. 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:35,000
Do I design it so the first thing that you see is the is a librarian loans desk or information desk where you can ask questions, or do I put that way in the back. 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:46,000
I guess the first thing that you see is some kind of campus security cop who's very different situation. 00:40:46,000 --> 00:41:00,000
We need more campus security cops, maybe, I don't know, we probably don't. 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,000
When I went to school we saw them quasi Cox. 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,000
If we get if we get enough spammers we will bring in the campus security cop right now pretty spam free. 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:14,000
That's a good point. 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:23,000
Yeah, okay well those are good things for me to look at is the vertical components. 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:28,000
And 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,000
probably some more work on the verbiage to try and 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:38,000
They essentially what we're trying to do is reduce the number of levels, you have to go through before you find the area you're interested, right. 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Right. And also once we're in. We want to be. We want to have the navigation help be both unobtrusive, so it doesn't get in the way of reading the information, but available so that we when we can still map to related content. 00:41:47,000 --> 00:42:06,000
So that's, that's a difficult problem. 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Yeah, I'm, I'm actually, and I'm not saying it's a solved problem, but I'm actually thinking the category tree on the side really helps with that. 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:17,000
Yep. 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,000
Because you can open things up and find more stuff, but it also, you know, when we have that many options it becomes noise until you until you focus there. 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:32,000
And then, and then your pressure, then your impression is going to be on the dependent on the things that you focus on. 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:38,000
Right, but like to give an example as soon as I go to the community page. 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,000
This is quite a bit reduced. Yep. 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:50,000
But it's still, you know, it's like the, the, the left nav or the right nav, you know, what your eye gets drawn to is depends on what, what your, your motivations were when you got there, and how easily distracted you are and other stuff like that. 00:42:50,000 --> 00:43:08,000
Yeah, well, as you say, you know, as I was saying that, you know, the design of the atrium. 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:25,000
And I guess one of the, in addition to the, the hominology thing. Sometimes it's good just to have something to break the pattern just to draw the eye to this one odd thing that some people might be interested in. 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:43,000
Again, that's. 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,000
I'm thinking my experience with different forms of media. 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:56,000
And I always think of advertising, because it's so focused on delivering a precise message. 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:05,000
And the advantage you have with advertising is you know exactly what audience you're trying to create action within. 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:16,000
You're not trying to do it for multiple bunch of audiences. 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,000
You're trying to do it for a particular audience. 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:36,000
And that's actually an easier thing than this which is a bit more general purpose. 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:53,000
But you can't just put the sprinkle those things all over for each audience because the ad is really targeted to get a particular group to do something. 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:03,000
And they're not really interested in what any other particular group will do. 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:10,000
Yeah. 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:36,000
And I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think 00:45:36,000 --> 00:46:06,000
The other thing I guess that I'm mindful of is I don't want to have to spend 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:13,000
such a level of detail on the presentation that it gets in the way of people providing content. 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:21,000
Although for the, the, you know, it's just the landing page there right listening. Right. Absolutely no the landing page, no I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right that's, that's his job so that that is a place where you can focus on that for sure. 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:38,000
And I suppose to some extent this is the landing page and I just look and see whether there's ways to make it but once you get into the secondary landing pages just having a style is good enough. 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:50,000
I'd been thinking that but I mean I'll take a look at the style and see if there's ways to. 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000
I guess if we were doing a USA Today style presentation, see how you have a table under forums a table under RC channels a table under blogs table under journals. 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:10,000
The USA Today approach would be the set, there's kind of two columns here, and to make those two columns line up across all of those sections. 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:23,000
Trying to figure out some way to make that happen. 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,000
So, even though there's an inter, you know, an interruption with the section headings. It still looks like a coherent whole. 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:37,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,000
And you can kind of do that with with tables, although you wind up doing strange things to get the borders to behave right to behave like the behaving now. 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:50,000
Really the challenge with the tables because originally what I did is I had the forums is as a heading in the table. 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:57,000
But as soon as you do that you lose your table of contents. 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,000
And there's also new CSS stuff to replace tables, you know, 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:08,000
yeah. 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,000
So, you know that I'm a lot of my memories are kind of dated this point also. 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:27,000
I just read, read I think is what I was trying to remember. 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,000
CSS grid. 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,000
Well, I believe you can do flexi grid on these. 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:44,000
I'm just sort of wondering whether there's a way with whether if you put forums within a div, whether it's still be recognized. 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:55,000
And then you can control outline in a background and actually make it look like it's part of the table and it's not. 00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:01,000
Not sure if flex box. 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,000
Do what I'm thinking here. 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:13,000
Anyways, 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:25,000
should be kind of here. 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,000
But what if, if you alternated left and right orientation between the safe forums is leaning to the left IRC channels are going to be over to the right logs would be the left so you get sick of a zigzag pattern down. 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:42,000
Oh, disrupts more. 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,000
Well, well, like I said I might my. 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,000
The thing that I'm that I'm used to is, is 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:54,000
you introducing elements that that present the, the different chunks as being related information, as opposed to trying to make them look like they're unrelated. 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:13,000
I'd have to see as exact figure out if I could. 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:18,000
Well, and the problem might have with that is if you clicked on, say, well, let's say we clicked on user groups. 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:26,000
If you do the zigzag. 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,000
It would be over here. 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,000
Yep. 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,000
That's useful. And it's also on a very wide page. If it was responsive. 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:38,000
Be even more of a horizontal scan. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:44,000
I guess what I was wondering if it would accomplish is it would tend to group. 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:49,000
This thing together. And then this being over here, would be tended to group together. 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:56,000
But that's all it's really gaining. 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:04,000
Yeah. 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:19,000
And the other the other change I did make with these is originally. These were expandable tables. 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:26,000
And at a certain point I realized if we want them expanded automatically I can do that but then why do I need an expanded table I don't need to shrink them down. 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:35,000
I've got access to everything up here. 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,000
So even if there's a long table. I can jump over it by just jumping down. 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:58,000
Anyway, I'll give those things some thought. 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:05,000
So, you're familiar with CSS grid right I don't I don't have to go into that in any detail. 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:12,000
Right. CSS grid you mean like the same thing that is being used in jqt. The, the, the markup replacement for tables in CSS. 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:25,000
Oh yeah yeah yeah I row. 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,000
Was it TDTR. 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,000
That's table. That's HTML right. 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,000
Let me throw a link in the chat. 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,000
Zoom where's chat. 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:44,000
The grid I'm thinking about is the one that jqt uses to to lay out its components on its 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:54,000
apps. 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,000
Vertical and horizontal and then by putting spaces and things around it. 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:04,000
Responsive grid is kind of like table but it's, it's designed to deal with things like the table contents issue. 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:13,000
And it's CSS of course, as much as HTML. 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:20,000
Let's take a look at that. 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:31,000
I have bounced around this I've never actually sat down and read through the whole thing. 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:38,000
My limit has been more about what you do within the adding spacing and those things that would probably be internal to the grid. 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:53,000
Or is that spacing all taken care of automatically. 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,000
It's responsive. 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,000
So, it has some, something, it depends with it still with automatically depends on what is you're trying to achieve. 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:09,000
Right. Yeah, okay. 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,000
Well thanks I'll definitely take a look at that. 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:21,000
Because if we can put something like that is consistent, and 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:29,000
yeah, I'll take a look at this. 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,000
It's more if we come up with something and then I like it standard on the pages so it's not too hard to coach somebody through making changes or adding pages. 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:40,000
That'd be easy to use it's got to look kind of okay. Yeah, where the content we're putting on it, and it's got to not be too hokey once we, when we come back to the week later. 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:48,000
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:54:48,000 --> 00:55:06,000
Really makes me wonder whether it would make more sense to have created new book with CSS grid. 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:16,000
It could be, it can be done that way, but I'll be good to start with something a little bit smaller. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:24,000
I'm just thinking when you go in and look at new book, it's, it's actually a pretty complicated set of tables spans and lots of different things going on in there takes a while to figure out. 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:36,000
Yeah, it might, it might be worth doing that. 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:44,000
Well looks like we dug ourselves a new. 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,000
Yeah, I'm thinking now I'm thinking about the whole templates wiki template system and the table markup and how that would translate into wiki editing context so that when you're editing it in. 00:55:48,000 --> 00:56:03,000
It makes sense to make small changes. 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:08,000
Without messing it up. 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,000
That would play out and that's 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,000
interesting. 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,000
Maybe I should think about it. 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,000
Well tables definitely make a nice stable presentation, but in order to go in and change things as much more challenging. 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:29,000
Yep. 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,000
And I guess, making it so you don't get lost while changing it is probably the important 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:37,000
especially with a big table. 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:43,000
And to some degree, you almost want the server to help somehow. 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:51,000
So it's easy to easy to put together is not the same thing it's easy to come back and edit and it and having ways of 00:56:51,000 --> 00:57:02,000
maybe server fung in comments into the into the wiki markup or maybe it's it's polarized when you come back and edit it or maybe it's an error if you do something that that breaks things too bad. 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:18,000
I'm not quite sure what it would be but it seems like there's possibilities there. 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:25,000
Yeah, that sounds to me like a an ambitious app to build. 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:31,000
Yeah. 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,000
Maybe two additions. 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,000
But you can you can throw in like a whole style jQuery something that the introspects onto the page and and looks for things and does stuff for you. 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:45,000
And that wouldn't require any major changes other than how to deploy it once. 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:54,000
I'll probably look at the grid stuff. I will look at that homepage because that was my first run at it, and then fairly happy with it but I it's not finished yet. 00:57:54,000 --> 00:58:05,000
Hoping that Chris and Eric will be a little more happy with that textual face. 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:13,000
So many pictures. 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,000
Yeah. 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,000
I think that's about it for this week. 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,000
I know we're probably coming up on an hour or two. 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:26,000
So have a good week. Thanks for all your comments and all your help. 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,000
Appreciate it. 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,000
Have a good week. 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,000